Moderators: ajaxusa, Kowalczyk, mods
What's that supposed to mean ?Kowalczyk schreef:I used that word because a few posts above mine someone claimed that the whole Jewish issue thing at Ajax is not about religion, but about 'racism' (which suggests that this person thinks the Jews are a race - which they're not).
K.
I've heard other people criticize this book too, though I enjoyed it. Why do you say 'disappointing'? Just curious...This book, written by Simon Kuper (broadsheet journalist and author of the bestselling Football Against the Enemy) is arguably the single most important and interesting book in English for Ajax fans (and also the only book in which Ajax USA gets a mention!). It does not attempt to chronicle the overall history of the Amsterdam club. Instead, this book complicates a fan's understanding of his club in very interesting ways. It clarifies the identity of Ajax as a 'Jewish' club, and it debunks some myths about Ajax and the Dutch in general regarding Jews during and after World War II. American fans will be especially interested in the heart-breaking story of Eddy Hamel, originally told by Kuper in the Dutch-language original of this book, Ajax, de Joden, Nederland, most of which was exclusively translated into English by Ajax USA in 2001.
True, I suppose. The original title was The Dutch, Jews and the War, so maybe ought to have stuck with that. But then he wouldn't have been able to market it to the massive Ajax USA readership as well. :eusa_dance:philippe schreef:First, in spite of what the title, there is little about Ajax
Semi-disjointed and free-ranging, but I kind of liked that about it. Almost more like a collection of theme-related essays than a single narrative. Ach, whatever.philippe schreef:Secund, it is based on various interviews, some interesting, others less, but the construction of the book is unclear
Well, I wasn't there at the time, but I've yet to read anything serious that paints a compellingly different picture. His point was not that the Dutch were evil, so much as that Netherlands wasn't the 'haven' for Jews that, say, Norway was... I realize this is itchy stuff for me to opine about, being too young to know first hand and being, well, way out here on the Left Coast and all...philippe schreef:Third, the main idea of the book seems to be that the Dutch were not as brave and nice with the jews during WWII as it is commonly said; this is a very questionable opinion, if you refer to the context, and to what happened in other occupied countries.
Maybe it's just a tad too reminiscent of the Third Reich's reference to "The Jewish Problem" (?)Kowalczyk schreef:You've said that a few times now - and I truly and honestly don't see the problem.philippe schreef:I would never have called this thread “the jewish issue”
Indeed, bringing the discussion to WWII was not my intention at all !ajaxusa schreef:Maybe it's just a tad too reminiscent of the Third Reich's reference to "The Jewish Problem" (?)Kowalczyk schreef:You've said that a few times now - and I truly and honestly don't see the problem.philippe schreef:I would never have called this thread “the jewish issue”
Maybe I would have gone for the rhetorical approach: "Is Ajax a Jewish Club?" ... whatever...
It's really a rather recent issue in the long Ajax history. Didn't start until the 80's. During the greatest glory days there was nothing of the kind. To someone such as myself, lucky enough to have experienced Ajax in the early seventies, the entire discussion has an artificial flavor.ajaxusa schreef: So long as blond-headed Dutch kids keep getting 'Ajax Star' tatoos and hanging Israeli flags in the ArenA, people will want to know, "What the f*ck's up with THAT?"
I guess my point is simply this: I am asked many more newbie questions about Ajax than you folks are (just imagine for a second the depth of understanding your average 14-year old from Laguna Beach has about Ajax), so it's nice to have discussions and historical stuff on line to point to, rather than answering these questions myself over and over and over and over and... X'Cphilippe schreef:Besides, almost every supporter knows the why and how of the David star on Ajax stands (well explained on the DAS site sometime ago).
Would it be possible to post the article here as well or put the link here to the ajax-usa 'from the deks of..'?Kowalczyk schreef:And the best thing is: Carcajou translated the whole story into English - so that it can appear on Ajax USA! Look out for the translated article as a From The Desk Of... installment soon!
K.
Did not see it - and I could 100% guarantee you that it would have been removed if it had been there.Carcajou schreef:According to French sports newspapers, a banner on which was written "Kalou back to the banana tree" (or something along this line) was displayed at the ArenA prior to the game.
The banner was alledgedly displayed before the game. I don't believe that both L'Equipe and the French equivalent of Reuters would buy bullcrap, they tend to be pretty serious institutions. So wait and see.Kowalczyk schreef:Did not see it - and I could 100% guarantee you that it would have been removed if it had been there.Carcajou schreef:According to French sports newspapers, a banner on which was written "Kalou back to the banana tree" (or something along this line) was displayed at the ArenA prior to the game.
I tend to dismiss this as 100 bollocks.
K.
Kowalczyk schreef:Did not see it - and I could 100% guarantee you that it would have been removed if it had been there.Carcajou schreef:According to French sports newspapers, a banner on which was written "Kalou back to the banana tree" (or something along this line) was displayed at the ArenA prior to the game.
I tend to dismiss this as 100 bollocks.
K.
Never mind the bollocks :nooo: Why should it be an either or principle? I rather don't see both of them. And previous clubs does not give us a reason to act like racists.philippe schreef:first, as a matter of principle, I never trust "l'équipe"
second, the banner never appeared on television
third, no one has forgotten what was Kalou's previous club
fourth, as K. says, if such a stupid banner appeared, it was instantly removed, but it is nevertheless terrible for the club's reputation
fith, we would rather see David star flags, wouldn't we ?
