UEFA decisions affecting Ajax

[aveslacker]

Strangely enough, even though I'm a pro-business capitalist swine, I agree with everything posted here on this topic. Although I have to say, if I had to choose one of the current EPL top four teams to play in the CL, I would choose Everton over ManU, Chelsea or Arseholenal any day. I admire Everton's plucky attitude, I suppose.

I also don't mind Liverpool doing well -- talk about old school, although their current vintage of players would, with the exception of Gerrard, be torn to shreds by those old 'pool teams. Milan Baros is a whiny bitch -- just wanted to throw that out there.

But Kowalckciaoshfiosdhicuk or whatever is right. There are a lot of classic teams around Europe (speaking from experience, I can say that Panathinaikos is a great one, although Olympiakos has the better ground). From my perspective, watching a Rapid Vienna - Ajax match is much more interesting than watching Real - Juve or something like that. There is just something so stale about watching the same cynical teams play each other time and time again (although to be fair, that last Chelsea - Barca match was a cracker).

I'd rather see teams play with a little passion, and have fans that show up at every stage of the competition. Naturally, I always hope that Ajax could be that team, but...

[Kowalczyk]

I read that the G-14 (the union of Europe's biggest clubs, including Ajax; I believe there were more than 14 clubs in the G-14 since a few years) will be dissolved. No idea what this will mean to Ajax. Any thoughts?

Also, I've been informed that Ajax are preparing an official protest against the 'home grown rule' in its current form. According to the 'home grown rule' every European club must field a number of 'home grown players', which means: players who have spent at least three years in the club's youth system.

Sounds like a good thing for Ajax, but the effect is disastrous. It means that rich, big clubs from the major football nations will steal Ajax's talent at an even younger age: they will snatch 'em away from De Toekomst at age 14 or something, so that they can spend three years in youth teams of their new club - and then enter the first team as a 'home grown player'.

This must be stopped - and Ajax are going to act.

K.

[gordonvandekamp]

I read that the G-14 (the union of Europe's biggest clubs, including Ajax; I believe there were more than 14 clubs in the G-14 since a few years) will be dissolved. No idea what this will mean to Ajax. Any thoughts?

Also, I've been informed that Ajax are preparing an official protest against the 'home grown rule' in its current form. According to the 'home grown rule' every European club must field a number of 'home grown players', which means: players who have spent at least three years in the club's youth system.

Sounds like a good thing for Ajax, but the effect is disastrous. It means that rich, big clubs from the major football nations will steal Ajax's talent at an even younger age: they will snatch 'em away from De Toekomst at age 14 or something, so that they can spend three years in youth teams of their new club - and then enter the first team as a 'home grown player'.

This must be stopped - and Ajax are going to act.

K.

From what I read about the G14 (I think it had 18 members, maybe more) it sounds like sort of a temporary compromise, although I don't know really see how it benefits the G14 and why they did it. From what I recall it sounded like the G14 was dissolved, but European clubs are going to form a new body consisting of 100 clubs and a club from each of UEFA's countries will be included.

I can only think that they are going to try and make it bigger to try and get more power away from FIFA/UEFA (although I don't think it will happen). I think one of the major issues over the last few years with the clubs has been compensating them for injuries players suffer on international duty. Not sure how that will be affected with a 100-club body, but I would only imagine it would make things take longer for any sort of agreement to be reached among the clubs, and then among the body and FIFA/UEFA.

I think it will be interesting to see how it turns out, but I think it will probably be like the G14. They didn't really have much power other than the threat of breaking away from UEFA and creating a European Super League. With more clubs, it may be interesting.

[SPL]

I think you will find that in England you can only sign schoolboys from
within an hour's travel of home. Kids from small clubs all join the big clubs once they are 16. ie Walcott comes from Newbury, and was a schoolboy at Southampton but joined Arsenal at 16.

English clubs can only sign overseas lads aged 16 so nothing is going to change.By the age of 19 they will be qualified if this new system comes in.



I do not see Ajax losing 14 year olds to English clubs.

[Kowalczyk]

ECA? What's this all about...? A new G-14 of some sort?

http://www.uefa.com/uefa/keytopics/kind ... 48350.html

It all sounds nice, but with this kind of thing it's always good to follow it for a while, see how it works out in practice, before deciding for yourself as to whether it's a useful or a useless initiative...

This must have something to do with the dissolution of the G-14, I reckon. But this is for all clubs...? Sounds nice, but there will be loads of conflicting interests, you'd say.

K.

[Kowalczyk]

World football association FIFA has agreed to the so-called 6+5 rule, which will (as of 2013) limit the number of foreigners allowed on the pitch to five. In Ajax's specific case, there must be six Dutchmen on the pitch at all times.

Do note that it's not a done deal yet: FIFA have now said 'yes', but problems are expected in Europe, where this may be against the 'employment without borders' rule, so we'll have to wait and see.

K.

[bryan]

That rule will only go through if the Maastricht Treaty is ripped up. Ain't gonna happen.

A football club is an employer just like any other and is not exempt from EU regulation. If my employer told me I couldn't get a promotion because they needed to fulfill a quota of Dutch people in a certain job, I'd be straight down to the court. Any footballer in a similar situation would do exactly the same thing and his case would be upheld.

[Arthur]

Your comparison might not be right. Every club is still allowed to employ as many foreigners as they like, they are just not allowed to field more than 5 of them at the same time.

In the Dutch section people are wondering if seeing this rule as a simple addition to the rules of football might mean that the EC has nothing to say about it.
(For example: they can't fight the rule that women aren't allowed to play in men's teams either, even though that is also in direct contradiction of European employment laws)

[Manneken Pis]

Your comparison might not be right. Every club is still allowed to employ as many foreigners as they like, they are just not allowed to field more than 5 of them at the same time.

In the Dutch section people are wondering if seeing this rule as a simple addition to the rules of football might mean that the EC has nothing to say about it.
(For example: they can't fight the rule that women aren't allowed to play in men's teams either, even though that is also in direct contradiction of European employment laws)

This has been debated ad nauseam in the UK.
It's not going to happen.

[bryan]

Your comparison might not be right. Every club is still allowed to employ as many foreigners as they like, they are just not allowed to field more than 5 of them at the same time.

That's why I mentioned a promotion. It would be like if Philips had a rule that, while being allowed to employ as many foreigners as they liked, 60% of the board of directors would have to be Dutch at any one time. It's workplace discrimination and any such a rule would be immediately struck down by any court in the land, not to even mention the EU courts.

It's not gonna happen.

[Arthur]

If this is workplace discrimination then so is not allowing men to play in the women leagues or not allowing adults in the youth leagues.
Those are gender and age based discrimination respectively.

[bryan]

I think that's a pretty trivial point. Good luck to the 35 year old who takes the youth leagues to court because he can't play with the Under 12s. I think we can all agree that gender specific or age specific sporting events have a clear purpose and function within society.

However, if a female footballer came along who was definitely good enough to play professional football with the men's teams, then I can see her successfully getting the courts to allow her to play in the men's leagues.

What we're talking about here is a rule that discriminates among employees of a company based upon their nationality. It stands no chance in the courts.

[SE6Ajacied]

However, if a female footballer came along who was definitely good enough to play professional football with the men's teams, then I can see her successfully getting the courts to allow her to play in the men's leagues.

Interesting debate this but didn't an Italian team sign a female player a couple of years back - nit of a publicity stunt I know, the same team also signed Colonel Gadaffi's son.....but no one said she couldn't play.

I'm not sure whether this will ever happen but I'm sure that they would be able to find some legal way of introducing it if they wanted to. As things stand right now I think I could have trouble getting a job in NL because I don't speak enough Dutch (I know that's by no means ALL jobs but a lot of them). I don't actually have a problem with that but the fact is that it happens and it's also legal I'm sure.

[AjaxPDX]

I'm with Bryan on this one. I'll never say never, but luckily there's only a 0.1% FIFA will find a loophole that allows this plan to actually be implemented. It's discouraging that FIFA is still so focused on creating and encouraging national discrimation within societies, but I'm not completely surprised.

[Frans]

I'm all for the rule. But to make it work it's gonna come down to the clubs willingly being a part of it, and that's not going to happen, mainly because they don't care about anything but themselves.

[bryan]

However, if a female footballer came along who was definitely good enough to play professional football with the men's teams, then I can see her successfully getting the courts to allow her to play in the men's leagues.

Interesting debate this but didn't an Italian team sign a female player a couple of years back - nit of a publicity stunt I know, the same team also signed Colonel Gadaffi's son.....but no one said she couldn't play.

I'm not sure whether this will ever happen but I'm sure that they would be able to find some legal way of introducing it if they wanted to. As things stand right now I think I could have trouble getting a job in NL because I don't speak enough Dutch (I know that's by no means ALL jobs but a lot of them). I don't actually have a problem with that but the fact is that it happens and it's also legal I'm sure.

A language is a skill and there's nothing wrong with an employer judging a future employee based on his or her skills. It's not a nationality based judgement.

[The Purple Cow]

"Your comparison might not be right. Every club is still allowed to employ as many foreigners as they like, they are just not allowed to field more than 5 of them at the same time."

But that would be a "constraint on trade" a clear breach of European law.

There is not a snowball's chance in hell of European legislation being changed to suit UEFA. Blatter and co. know this, which makes the whole thing a cynical ploy.

[bryan]

Exactly, and the EU foreigners rule was already struck down in the Bosman ruling. What are they expecting? The judge from 1995 to change his mind? The ruling to be reversed? The Maastricht Treaty to be torn up?

Football clubs are expected to adhere to employment regulations, just like everybody else.

I'm liking Michel Platini less and less with every passing minute. I hope Zizou headbutts him someday.

[DanK]

We seem to be forgetting that the Lisbon Treaty comes in to effect on Jan 1 2010 - Sport will be exempt from the EU's freedom of labor laws...
http://video.sbs.com.au/player/twg_new/ ... erId=14566

For some reason a direct link to the actual video discussing this wont work, but if you open the above link - its the KJH one :) - then navigate to 'The World Game Expert View' tab at the top of the player, then go to the 'Stoppage time - six plus five' clip it should work as normal.

[Kowalczyk]

Today is a day of good news for football. This is from NOS Teletekst:

Clubs that, financially, finish 'in the red' every year, must be banned from UEFA competition as per 2012, says Michel Platini in an interview with Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. The French UEFA chairman has put together a plan for 'financial fair play'. He wants to make the world of top football financially healthy. "We have decided to start from scratch in 2012," says Platini, "from that year on, the end-of-year figures of football clubs must be positive. If that's not the case, a ban from UEFA competition will be an option."

Platini acknowledges the problems with clubs such as Real Madrid, who keep on buying football players in spite of gigantic debts. "Certain cases really are too ridiculous to be true. It's also unfair to clubs that are in a good financial state."

About f***ing time, is what I say. We'll see how this works out. To be continued...

Here's an article about this stuff, on FourFourTwo.com: CLICK HERE.

K.

[Orange14]

Today is a day of good news for football. This is from NOS Teletekst:

Clubs that, financially, finish 'in the red' every year, must be banned from UEFA competition as per 2012, says Michel Platini in an interview with Dutch newspaper De Telegraaf. The French UEFA chairman has put together a plan for 'financial fair play'. He wants to make the world of top football financially healthy. "We have decided to start from scratch in 2012," says Platini, "from that year on, the end-of-year figures of football clubs must be positive. If that's not the case, a ban from UEFA competition will be an option."

Platini acknowledges the problems with clubs such as Real Madrid, who keep on buying football players in spite of gigantic debts. "Certain cases really are too ridiculous to be true. It's also unfair to clubs that are in a good financial state."

About f***ing time, is what I say. We'll see how this works out. To be continued...

Here's an article about this stuff, on FourFourTwo.com: CLICK HERE.

K.

We will see how this all shakes out. Kudos to Platini for taking tough stands.

[Jeroen126]

An option. Not the only option, an option. I'm not holding my breath.

[jamcocteau]

About f***ing time, is what I say. We'll see how this works out. To be continued...

Here's an article about this stuff, on FourFourTwo.com: CLICK HERE.

K.

Whilst I agree with what is being said the practicalities of this being enforced are impossible. To me the most telling paragraph in the whole article is this

"It is not easy because we have different financial systems in England, France, Germany and Georgia.;

To have a level playing field every club will have to prepare 2 sets of accounts - 1 which complies to recognised Financial Standards and accounting principles within their own country and then prepare another set of accounts which will need to comply to what UEFA requires. Will any club be willing to incur the additional cost of preparing another set of financial statements. Then who is going to be responsible for verifying that the financial statements which have to be submitted and comply with UEFA standards are true and fair. Anybody who has any dealing with corporate accounts will tell you that it is hard enough at the moment to get auditors to pass financial statements which comply with a countrys regulations without asking auditors to verfiy that a different set of accounts complies with UEFAs standards.

That is before we even move onto financial window dressing ie certain countries capitalise players transfer values as an intangible asset in the balance sheet over the life of the contract they have signed whilst in other it can be written off against the p&l in the year it has occurred. This alone can make a huge difference to a balance sheet and debt ratios etc. I reckon we will see other tangible assets such as land and buildings ( eg stadia, training pitches etc) increasing dramatically in value. Loans by directors to clubs being another which can be manipulated. Boring I know but just a few things that spring to mind immediately.

Intersting concept by UEFA but to me it is all window dressing and hotair. Clubs are bound by financial regulations and standards in the countries they are registered and to compare clubs financial statements coming from different countries is going to be like comparing apples and pears.

[Orange14]

I didn't want to quote all of Jamcocteau's post above but I think it's not going to be as difficult as all that. I am quite familiar with the accounting regulations in the USA which are set by the Financial Accounting Standards Board. All US based companies have to comply with those standards. There is also an International counterpart (see: http://www.iasb.org/Home.htm ). I don't know what the impact of this group is on the EU and of course UEFA extends beyond EU countries. Still a football team's balance sheet must be a lot simpler than a large corporation's such as Philips or Shell (to use to Dutch examples). The will have assets and liabilities that for the most part can be quantified though there will be issues related to depreciation (for example a 32 year old striker may not be as depreciable an asset as a 25 year old). Given that Platini wants to put this in place in 2 or 3 years, I think these issues could be worked through. Maybe he should go to the IASB and ask them to take this on as a project. I'm just sick and tired of clubs such as Madrid playing fast and loose and not be called to the carpet because their financial books are a scandal. I rather suspect that the teams in Germany and the Netherlands would probably make out OK (other than Feyenoord who seem to be in trouble from an accounting perspective).

Interesting project. I'm sure we have some accountants on this forum who would love to do this project!!! (Maybe you will even get free Champion League tickets)

[jamcocteau]

I didn't want to quote all of Jamcocteau's post above but I think it's not going to be as difficult as all that. I am quite familiar with the accounting regulations in the USA which are set by the Financial Accounting Standards Board. All US based companies have to comply with those standards. There is also an International counterpart (see: http://www.iasb.org/Home.htm ). I don't know what the impact of this group is on the EU and of course UEFA extends beyond EU countries.

Good answer but therein lies the problem - every country even within European Union complies to different Generally Accepted Accounting Principles (GAAP). There is no EU GAAP but instead we have Dutch GAAP, UK GAAP etc - all are very similar but there are differences. It is these differences which are going to create problems in preparing different sets of accounts, never mind additional cost. That is even before we get to the issue of non EU countries and god knows what goes on in their financial regulations. In a previous job I had to travel to various Eastern European countries which my company bought over and the problems I had experienced in bringing their financial statements upto a standard recognised in the EU was a nightmare.

Given that Platini wants to put this in place in 2 or 3 years, I think these issues could be worked through. Maybe he should go to the IASB and ask them to take this on as a project. I'm just sick and tired of clubs such as Madrid playing fast and loose and not be called to the carpet because their financial books are a scandal. I rather suspect that the teams in Germany and the Netherlands would probably make out OK (other than Feyenoord who seem to be in trouble from an accounting perspective).

This is something I dont understand, why UEFA have done this without approaching IASB in the first place. Even an unemployed accountant like me is aware that there is different GAAP in each country in the first place.

Now I am certainly not against the whole issue of UEFA compliance but at the end of the day UEFA has no legal precedent to be able to do this - they are not a government of a country ( even although they act like one at times ) and clubs will be forced to incur costs which many cannot afford. Once again it will be the smaller clubs who are hit hardest. Clubs who maybe gain entry to Europa league by fluke ie runners up in national cup competition or through Fair Play entry could be hit - I am thinking of clubs like Motherwell or Falkirk in Scotland who through having to comply with all seater regulations in their own countries are, probably like most Sscottish clubs, near bankrupt, will they be allowed to compete.

And it could also affect clubs who are made up of players through their own youth academies - these players are not capitalised on the clubs balance sheet, only the transfer value of bought players is capitalised as an intangible asset over the lifespan of the players contract. So a club could be technically insolvent but sitting with players brought up through their own youth systems worth millions - do the clubs sell a player to make their balance sheet solvent against their own wishes.

Sorry to bore you all but just question that have sprung to mind when reading the article. Only boring old farts of accountants like me and Over Pasanenas Head can get excited about this.