The Official Euro 2012 Thread

[Frans]

Whether or not BvM is retained and he certainly has to assume part of the blame here, there will be a rebuilding job ahead. It's difficult to see more that 3-4 players from this current team remaining a factor in the qualifying up to the next WC. One hopes that there will be some announced retirements rather than carrying on after their skills are no longer with them.

Really? From the team that played today only van der Vaart, Mathijsen and Stekelenberg will be 31+ at the next WC. While most of the key players will be 29/30 that's hardly going to rule them out of being a factor in the next two years. The only players who I'd see dropping out for the qualification for sure are van Bommel and Bouma. Also Mathijsen, Kuyt and Boulahrouz are unlikely to see the next WC (if Oranje qualify). Everyone else in the squad is young enough to get there. Whether they've been replaced by better players is a different story.

Ko was correct about the outcome of the group!! Three cheers!

so, now he's one from three. I'm interested to hear his prediction for WC qualifying...

[Philippe]

Wrong choices for the first game put Holland in a very difficult position.
It went worse when wrong choices were made again in the first half against Germany.

But IMO the disaster comes from last world cup when van Marwijk's ideas and ugly football turned out to be relatively successful and lead Oranje to the final.

About Dutch defenders, I don't think it can be said they are poor. It's the attacking minded football sometimes played, like yesterday, that put them under high pressure.

[Orange14]

Whether or not BvM is retained and he certainly has to assume part of the blame here, there will be a rebuilding job ahead. It's difficult to see more that 3-4 players from this current team remaining a factor in the qualifying up to the next WC. One hopes that there will be some announced retirements rather than carrying on after their skills are no longer with them.

Really? From the team that played today only van der Vaart, Mathijsen and Stekelenberg will be 31+ at the next WC. While most of the key players will be 29/30 that's hardly going to rule them out of being a factor in the next two years. The only players who I'd see dropping out for the qualification for sure are van Bommel and Bouma. Also Mathijsen, Kuyt and Boulahrouz are unlikely to see the next WC (if Oranje qualify). Everyone else in the squad is young enough to get there. Whether they've been replaced by better players is a different story.

Let's focus only on those players who saw action. Of the defenders, only Willems has a future with the team (he was too young and inexperienced for this tournament); Mathijsen is too old, Vlaar is too slow, Heitinga gets lost in the game, van der Wiel is not as good as he thinks he is. In the midifield, de Jong may be able to play on but there are other defensive midfielders who are quicker than he and can play a pressing 4-3-3 which should be the desired formation; van der Vaart has slowed down and really can only be a withdrawn striker these days (a position that really doesn't exist except at his club), van Bommel needs no comment; and Sneijder still has two years left at a decent level. Of those who played up front maybe Robben and/or van Persie stay around (one or both may retire from international competition); Huntelaar is too one dimensional and had trouble creating anything (though he didn't play much in the first too matches and couldn't get any service in the Portugal game); Afellay is just not good (and I doubt he will be getting much playing time at Barcelona going forward). I suspect also that Krul will be the #1 selection in goal and Steks will retire from international competition rather than be #2.

[Frans]

Whether or not BvM is retained and he certainly has to assume part of the blame here, there will be a rebuilding job ahead. It's difficult to see more that 3-4 players from this current team remaining a factor in the qualifying up to the next WC. One hopes that there will be some announced retirements rather than carrying on after their skills are no longer with them.

Really? From the team that played today only van der Vaart, Mathijsen and Stekelenberg will be 31+ at the next WC. While most of the key players will be 29/30 that's hardly going to rule them out of being a factor in the next two years. The only players who I'd see dropping out for the qualification for sure are van Bommel and Bouma. Also Mathijsen, Kuyt and Boulahrouz are unlikely to see the next WC (if Oranje qualify). Everyone else in the squad is young enough to get there. Whether they've been replaced by better players is a different story.

Let's focus only on those players who saw action. Of the defenders, only Willems has a future with the team (he was too young and inexperienced for this tournament); Mathijsen is too old, Vlaar is too slow, Heitinga gets lost in the game, van der Wiel is not as good as he thinks he is. In the midifield, de Jong may be able to play on but there are other defensive midfielders who are quicker than he and can play a pressing 4-3-3 which should be the desired formation; van der Vaart has slowed down and really can only be a withdrawn striker these days (a position that really doesn't exist except at his club), van Bommel needs no comment; and Sneijder still has two years left at a decent level. Of those who played up front maybe Robben and/or van Persie stay around (one or both may retire from international competition); Huntelaar is too one dimensional and had trouble creating anything (though he didn't play much in the first too matches and couldn't get any service in the Portugal game); Afellay is just not good (and I doubt he will be getting much playing time at Barcelona going forward). I suspect also that Krul will be the #1 selection in goal and Steks will retire from international competition rather than be #2.

It's one thing to say a player is not good enough, but unless you can name someone better then they deserve their spot on the team. Sure, the defense is a big problem, but is there anyone better out there? If you kick out Mathijsen, Vlaar, Heitinga and van der Weil, who are you going to put in?

The fact is, qualification starts in less then 3 months. Are you really going to clear out 3/4 of the team in that time? If so, tell us your starting 11 for the sept 7th game vs Turkey

[Orange14]

It's one thing to say a player is not good enough, but unless you can name someone better then they deserve their spot on the team. Sure, the defense is a big problem, but is there anyone better out there? If you kick out Mathijsen, Vlaar, Heitinga and van der Weil, who are you going to put in?

The fact is, qualification starts in less then 3 months. Are you really going to clear out 3/4 of the team in that time? If so, tell us your starting 11 for the sept 7th game vs Turkey

The Turkey match is going to be quite dodgy given it comes so soon after the Euros. Turkey also thoroughly trashed Portugal in the last friendly prior to the EC and has something to prove given they didn't make it through the qualifiers. I agree with your main point about who is better. Certainly we know that van Rhijn 'at this point in time' is better than van der Wiel. This was proven over the last part of the club season and I think the only reason Greg saw any action at all when he returned from his injury is because FdB wanted to give him some match action so he would be ready for the Euros. It's too bad that he really hasn't progressed all that much since becoming an Ajax starter. 'IF' Heitinga can get his head screwed on right, he could get his starting position back. I saw a number of Everton matches this year and he was really good in the center of their defense. His poor play in the first two Euro matches was really quite puzzling. Mathijsen is going to retire and just cannot get the job done anymore due to age.

Given the short time for preparation and assuming BvM is still the bondscoach, here is who I think will start the Turkey match:

Krul
van der Wiel/van Rhijn, Heitinga, Douglas/Vlaar, Pieters/Willems
de Jong, Anita/Strootman, Sneijder
Robben, van Persie, Narsingh

It is what it is and I can't see BvM throwing any of the young central defenders into the mix for this match. The only one who has ever been called up for a friendly was Bruma. I don't know if Maduro is healthy these days or not and he's really not had all that much playing time with Valencia. Also I think Strootman is facing some type of knee surgery so he might not be available in the midfield.

EDIT: forgot about Douglas who says he wants to play for the NT so I put him in ahead of Vlaar.

[Philippe]

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... ill_co.php

[ajaxcolombia]

The key man for holland in the future, in my opinion, will be gouweleeuw who I believe can progress to be a world class defender in the style of great classy centre-backs like Mats Hummels and Jan Vertonghen. I can really see him leading the backline for Holland, maybe not for 2014, but surely in the future. How about a Gouweleeuw and Denswil pairing in the future for holland??? Van rhijn surely to play right back in the future, maybe even sooner than expected. Then Anita and Jordy Classie would make an amazing central midfield pairing, even better than schweinsteiger - khedira (I might make a lot of german comparisons, but they certainly are the most exciting national team right now). Luuk de Jong and Bas Dost are great options upfront. A lot of exciting players to play on the wings too, Narsingh and Ola John for example. Maybe only Sneijder will be really hard to replace right now.

[afcajax73]

Sneijder and steks... He did well again

[Frans]

It's one thing to say a player is not good enough, but unless you can name someone better then they deserve their spot on the team. Sure, the defense is a big problem, but is there anyone better out there? If you kick out Mathijsen, Vlaar, Heitinga and van der Weil, who are you going to put in?

The fact is, qualification starts in less then 3 months. Are you really going to clear out 3/4 of the team in that time? If so, tell us your starting 11 for the sept 7th game vs Turkey

The Turkey match is going to be quite dodgy given it comes so soon after the Euros. Turkey also thoroughly trashed Portugal in the last friendly prior to the EC and has something to prove given they didn't make it through the qualifiers. I agree with your main point about who is better. Certainly we know that van Rhijn 'at this point in time' is better than van der Wiel. This was proven over the last part of the club season and I think the only reason Greg saw any action at all when he returned from his injury is because FdB wanted to give him some match action so he would be ready for the Euros. It's too bad that he really hasn't progressed all that much since becoming an Ajax starter. 'IF' Heitinga can get his head screwed on right, he could get his starting position back. I saw a number of Everton matches this year and he was really good in the center of their defense. His poor play in the first two Euro matches was really quite puzzling. Mathijsen is going to retire and just cannot get the job done anymore due to age.

Given the short time for preparation and assuming BvM is still the bondscoach, here is who I think will start the Turkey match:

Krul
van der Wiel/van Rhijn, Heitinga, Douglas/Vlaar, Pieters/Willems
de Jong, Anita/Strootman, Sneijder
Robben, van Persie, Narsingh

It is what it is and I can't see BvM throwing any of the young central defenders into the mix for this match. The only one who has ever been called up for a friendly was Bruma. I don't know if Maduro is healthy these days or not and he's really not had all that much playing time with Valencia. Also I think Strootman is facing some type of knee surgery so he might not be available in the midfield.

EDIT: forgot about Douglas who says he wants to play for the NT so I put him in ahead of Vlaar.

So really you've got up to 8 (9 really as I don't see Krul replacing Stekelenberg yet) players still in the team. I do agree agree with your original point that the team needs refreshing. Perhaps a better line for your original point would have been to say hopefully no more than 3-4 players from the current team are key factors if Oranje make the WC in 2 years.

[Orange14]

I think it's difficult to say who will be on the WC team assuming we qualify. The only reason that I have so many current players for the Turkey match is because of it's importance in qualifying. If we were going to play one of the minnow teams there might be an opportunity to bring the younger players in. The fact that we face Turkey and Hungary back to back to start the group argues against this (and it could be that the NT does poorly in both those games). At any rate, it will be an interesting qualifying group with some difficult matches for a team that is mentally questioning why things went so bad in the Euros. My one overriding hope is that Frank honors his commitment to Ajax and is not seduced by the NT manager job should van Marwijk step down.

[rjf1]

...My one overriding hope is that Frank honors his commitment to Ajax and is not seduced by the NT manager job should van Marwijk step down.

That has been the one thought nagging at the back of my brain during this whole disaster. What a miserable outcome for us that would be.

[Manneken Pis]

...My one overriding hope is that Frank honors his commitment to Ajax and is not seduced by the NT manager job should van Marwijk step down.

That has been the one thought nagging at the back of my brain during this whole disaster. What a miserable outcome for us that would be.

For what it's worth, on Studio Sportszomer on Ned1 last night some journalists (that gave the impression of being "in the know") said that the next national coach will be Roland Koeman if BvM should step down.

They gave the impression he was very highly regarded by the KNVB, which wouldn't be my assessment with the exception of Fword last season.

[Frans]

...My one overriding hope is that Frank honors his commitment to Ajax and is not seduced by the NT manager job should van Marwijk step down.

That has been the one thought nagging at the back of my brain during this whole disaster. What a miserable outcome for us that would be.

For what it's worth, on Studio Sportszomer on Ned1 last night some journalists (that gave the impression of being "in the know") said that the next national coach will be Roland Koeman if BvM should step down.

They gave the impression he was very highly regarded by the KNVB, which wouldn't be my assessment with the exception of Fword last season.

Koeman is only good when he takes over a young team that are on the up. And then he's only good for two years at best. I think he would be absolutely one of the worst possible choices for Holland at this point. They really need someone who can handle the massive egos of the players and be prepared to start introducing some fresh blood. All the big name coaches have had their chance (Hiddink, van Gaal, Advocaat, Rijkaard) and I don'y see many other viable choices (de Haan?, Adriaanse?) Might be worth giving van Marwijk another year to see if he can redeem himself.

[Cruijff]

Koeman is known for 'jumping on any train that brings him to a bigger team and higher salary', but maybe he will stay faithful to Feyenoord this time. It would be good for our Rotterdam rivals if he is their coach for at least one more season and perhaps also good for us if they eliminate SC Braga or Dinamo Kiev in Champions League qualification. I hope Van Marwijk will leave, but maybe they can start the 2014 qualifications with him and replace him more than a year before the World Cup in Brasil if things don't get any better soon.

In my opinion Koeman or maybe Rijkaard would be good for this job. In the future Frank de Boer will be the best Oranje coach for sure, but I hope he will stay with us for at least 8 or 9 more years. I also think Frank prefers to be on the pitch with his team every day. The guy is much too fanatic to have only a couples games a year and maximum 55 or 60 days during a period of two years.

[ofey]

Haven't been on for awhile now.
Hope everyone has been annoyed by the insipid Dutch performances.
As far as I'm concerned, my main gripe is Bert's stubborness:
Clearly Van Persie wasn't a number 9 in SA four years ago. No point forcing it.
Clearly Van Bommel has lost his ability to dominate. Bayern wouldn't have gotten rid of him otherwise
Clearly Vlaar is too slow to be an international class center half
and
Clearly Willems was too new to replace Van Bronckhorst. Even a half arsed Emanuelson would have been more experienced.

So with the Dutch out , now it's time to get behind England for me .

[Cruijff]

Welcome back ofey!

Clearly Van Persie wasn't a number 9 in SA four years ago. No point forcing it.

Small correction: South Africa was 2 years ago. Dutch football can go down fast... ;-) Of course a lot of people are annoyed after this disgrace of Oranje, but many Ajacieden just think they got what they deserved as there were too many losers and too many PSV twats involved with this.

[Philippe]

Good news from the UEFA : their referees are still pathetic (see England / Ukraine).

[Orange14]

Good news from the UEFA : their referees are still pathetic (see England / Ukraine).

Bjorn Kuipers who was the Dutch match official for two pool games will not be officiating any of the knockout matches. He missed some clear calls during those games.

[Philippe]

Incredible van Marwijk is not sacked yet.

http://www.dutchnews.nl/news/archives/2 ... e_reju.php

[SPL]

I should not mention woeful England on the grounds of what they were trying to do on the football field cannot be described as football. Playing more defensive and negative than Italy we should give up International football.

[Orange14]

I should not mention woeful England on the grounds of what they were trying to do on the football field cannot be described as football. Playing more defensive and negative than Italy we should give up International football.

LOL! It was a very dreadful display of football and of the starting 11, maybe only Joe Hart can be singled out as a keeper of some talent; certainly the other 10 were quite poor across the board. That they let a 33 year old midfielder dictate the play for the whole match speaks volumes. Of course when one looks at EPL teams these days, one sees more foreign players each year. I don't know what England can do to turn this around.

[Tom_]

Lower their expectations? Given the quality of the team, getting out of the group as winners was a fair achievement, albeit lucky. France should've beaten them, the Sweden match could've gone either way, total fluke goal against Ukraine...

[SPL]

I don't think the public expected much from this team and getting to the quarters was all most expected.The only time the papers went over board was when Rooney was available and Hodgson made some stupid reference to Rooney being our Pele . Yes all laugh but the coach said that. Rooney was a non event like all of them.

Had we played some proper football and been beaten in the groups at least that would have been better.


PS Being an Englishman who thinks the only way football should be played is the Ajax way ,now developed and taken further by Barcelona , I quess I am expecting too much of English footballers.

[saddlerian]

Of course when one looks at EPL teams these days, one sees more foreign players each year. I don't know what England can do to turn this around.

I'm afraid that the FA have now got to "bite the bullet". Their clubs have gratefully accepted the TV money from Sky, and the exceptional amounts "invested" by oil rich "wannerbees"...so you can expect no progress for the English team any longer. That waste of money, The National Sports Centre, is hardly likely to produce very much when the so called elite clubs in English soccer are employing "foreign" players so much....the main examples of this being Chelsea, Man U and Arsenal who have very few English players......and the ones they do have can't do too much.....not even take a free shot from 12 yds

Mr Hodgson has probably negotiated a nice little contract for the next four years.....he must be the most highly paid baby sitter on the planet!!!

[Orange14]

Being an Englishman who thinks the only way football should be played is the Ajax way ,now developed and taken further by Barcelona , I quess I am expecting too much of English footballers.

I watch a fair amount of EPL football since that's the league we get the most of here in the US. The only teams that play attractive style football (at least of those that I saw more than one time last season) are Arsenal, ManCity (though I don't like them) and surprisingly Wigan Athletic. The remaining teams are all too predictable (though Newcastle seemed lively during the season) and boring.