Ajaxtalk

I thought Willems was too vulnerable on defense -- so many dangerous attacks came down the right and blew right past him. Rommedahl (wish he was still with us) made him look sick.

Tom_ schreef:I wouldn't expect a mediocre team to have 32 shots... Denmark were very lucky

That's because Denmark is even crappier than Holland.... Normally Holland should have won, but in the current conditions, they drop below their normal level. Cheap giveaways like Heitinga did, are deadly at tournaments. Denmark didn't play great, but they won. Germany the same.

I often get confused in these tournaments, but don't we prefer Portugal to beat Denmark, or a draw? If Denmark wins they're practically through with 6 points and we need them to eliminate Germany...

Anyway it's all irrelevant unless the Netherlands can beat Germany.

I am expecting something like this on the final day.

Germany 9
Holland 3
Portugal 3
Denmark 3

And the goal difference to be the key!!!

Did not get to watch this game but looks like Ko's prediction may come true. Have to say on paper the Dutch defence looks very moderate. Will watch the Germany game which is a must win.

Clearly V d Wiel did not have a good game but how were Eriksen and Schone?

SPL schreef: Clearly V d Wiel did not have a good game but how were Eriksen and Schone?

Eriksen was a non-factor for the most part and I can't remember him getting many touches. Until the final 20 minutes, Oranje had most of the possession and that was only evened up when the team was physically spent because of the heat and humidity. Schone came on for Eriksen and I guess was OK; major good play came from Agger and Kjaer in the center of the defense.

We have the top goalscorers of the Bundesliga and the English Premier League - and still we didn't score. Sums it all up, really.

K.

Eriksen was mediocre at best. From my impressions of the last few games of the season, and now this, it seems as if he is stuck in a rut.

Kowalczyk schreef:We have the top goalscorers of the Bundesliga and the English Premier League - and still we didn't score. Sums it all up, really.

What we don't have is a team that has a steely determination to win -- been the story of Holland for a long time.

rjf1 schreef:

Kowalczyk schreef:We have the top goalscorers of the Bundesliga and the English Premier League - and still we didn't score. Sums it all up, really.

What we don't have is a team that has a steely determination to win -- been the story of Holland for a long time.

True. But at previous tournaments we had some real quality players, like Bergkamp, Overmars, Kluivert and Stam. Worldcup in South Africa and this European championship was a turning point for Holland. Instead of losing while playing beautyfull, we now wanted to win 'ugly'. In Africa it almost worked, now the players are just not good enough. I would rather see the 'good old days' back. Maybe not winning, but play football as we are supposed to.

GangstaRiB schreef: True. But at previous tournaments we had some real quality players, like Bergkamp, Overmars, Kluivert and Stam. Worldcup in South Africa and this European championship was a turning point for Holland. Instead of losing while playing beautyfull, we now wanted to win 'ugly'. In Africa it almost worked, now the players are just not good enough. I would rather see the 'good old days' back. Maybe not winning, but play football as we are supposed to.

I'm on the same wavelength and am encouraged that there are a lot of good young players coming up through the Eredivisie that can bring this dream back to reality. Even though they are all 'midgets,' a mid-field of Sneijder, Anita, and Classie would have been a dream come true.

GangstaRiB schreef:

rjf1 schreef:What we don't have is a team that has a steely determination to win -- been the story of Holland for a long time.

True. But at previous tournaments we had some real quality players, like Bergkamp, Overmars, Kluivert and Stam. Worldcup in South Africa and this European championship was a turning point for Holland. Instead of losing while playing beautyfull, we now wanted to win 'ugly'. In Africa it almost worked, now the players are just not good enough. I would rather see the 'good old days' back. Maybe not winning, but play football as we are supposed to.

I didn't mean that we should play the way we did in SA -- I found that very disappointing -- the last game was especially disgusting -- I even stopped rooting for Holland to win in that game. I want Holland to get back to what is the best about Dutch football, same as you. What I meant was that with Holland teams they rarely turn the flair and style into a determination to win. What I would like to see -- win or lose -- is style and determination -- not just style alone.

Huge mistake in the Denmark game was that reliance on pitty pat football where they constantly pass the ball backwards and then play it back and forth along the back line. Played right into Denmark's hands. They were set up to play for a 0-0 draw with the off chance of nicking a lucky goal for a win -- which is exactly what happened. We had 90 minutes to score a goal -- so what did we do -- we helped them by slowing down the game and running down our own clock.

rjf1 schreef:

GangstaRiB schreef:

rjf1 schreef: Huge mistake in the Denmark game was that reliance on pitty pat football where they constantly pass the ball backwards and then play it back and forth along the back line. Played right into Denmark's hands.

...and we saw something similar in the Italy/Spain fixture yesterday. Good managers like Prandelli can figure out ways to solve personnel problems and put out a formation and strategy that is capable of winning a match (who would have thought to play de Rossi as a central defender?). Del Bosque is even worse than van Marwijk in terms of tactics and team structure. All these managers have bought into the 4-2-3-1 as if it's the only way to win football matches. Anyway, we will see if BvM gets the ship righted for the Wednesday match. Based on his comments over the weekend it looks like the same starting 11 save for the insertion of Mathijsen for Vlaar. I am not optimistic.

As suspected we are getting HAMMERED by the Germans.

Prime-time on European television, everybody can see that Holland is playing like a bunch of cowards.

All you had to do was look at the starting lineup and team formation to know that it was going to be a terrible night.

rjf1 schreef:All you had to do was look at the starting lineup and team formation to know that it was going to be a terrible night.

At least go down fighting. Right now we are just sitting ducks waiting for the kill.

Goddam*** play some proper football!!

Starting a 100 year old midfielder is always a recipe for disaster. The NT needs to go back to a 4-3-3 and there are plenty of players in the Eredivisie who can run this formation. I think de Jong did OK as he was man marking Ozil most of the time. van Bommel is just too slow and I'm glad he will be starting for PSV this coming season.

When they say Robben is a one-trick-pony, precisely which 'trick' are they referring to?

Cutting inside from the right and shooting with his left from distance.

Sorry, you'll have to forgive my sarcasm. I've never had any time for wingers who don't pass, though.

Orange14 schreef:van Bommel is just too slow and I'm glad he will be starting for PSV this coming season.

I'm glad that that waste of space Willem will play for psv next year.

Of course it turned out how many of us predicted. Wrong formation and wrong personnel. A nice strike by van Persie pegged one back but it wasn't enough as Germany were able to see the match out against a very tired Dutch side. I'm glad they didn't lay down and quit and even though the team still has a chance to qualify, it will take at minimum a 3-0 win against Portugal to get enough of a goal differential. FWIW here are my player ratings:

Stekelenberg (6) - maybe he should have done better on the 2nd Gomez goal and he clearly should not have almost let Klose get a cheap one with a couple of minutes remaining. I wouldn't be surprised to see Krul start the next match.
Willems (4) - just not good enough to play at this level right now. Constantly in trouble and indecisive when he had the ball
Mathijsen (5) - gave it his all but is too old to start these days
Heitnga (5) - lost Hummels on a corner and was lucky that they didn't score
van der Wiel (5) - again no offense but OK defensively
van Bommel (4) - a spectator on the first goal when he should have checked Schweinsteiger and had to come off at the half; never should have been in the selection
de Jong (7) - best player on the pitch given he had to cover so much ground on defense; decent passing as well
Sneijder (6) - not quite as precise as against Denmark
Afellay (5) - few contributions if any; very weak cross when a stronger hit might have led to something
van Persie (6) - worked tirelessly and was rewarded with a nice goal
Robben (5) - worked hard but again nothing to show for it
van der Vaart (5) - only out of charity since he had few touches and didn't do much at all
Huntelaar (5) - looked like he was going to get a shot off but it didn't happen
Kuyt (NR) - on too briefly at the end

We still have one more match to go but it's going to be the longest of shots and attention must now be paid to the next generation of Dutch footballers as only a few from this team will be on the NT going forward.

Thank you for the ratings Orange14, a 2-0 win against Portugal is enough.

Cruijff schreef:Thank you for the ratings Orange14, a 2-0 win against Portugal is enough.

Right you are! Thanks for catching that; of course if pre-supposes that Germany will defeat Denmark.

Yes, that's true. But I've seen stranger things happen in football so I won't be surprised if Holland makes it to the quarter finals.