General Football Discussion

[rjf1]

Hey, they don't call it blood doping, and haven't banned it for providing an unnatural advantage, for nothing.

[aveslacker]

@Tom_ I don't think think it had any impact at all on the result of the game.

Of course it would have. EPO lets you run forever without needing time to recover. Any individual who uses it has an advantage over those that don't.

That is arguable. AFAIK there have been no direct trials to assess the impact of EPO on sports performance. The data that I have seen indicates that hemoglobin concentration in the blood is increased but the direct oxygen intake and utilization has not been measured (at least in the open scientific literature). In terms of performance enhancement one can get a much bigger improvement through the use of anabolic steroids (increased muscle mass) and stimulants (increased reaction time). With respect to the latter, a lot of years ago when I was still playing competitive volleyball in college I had a bad sinus cold and was taking pseudoephedrine (then available only by prescription and this was way before diversion of large amounts for manufacturing of crystal meth). We had a match against another school that weekend and I was amazed at how my reaction time to hard driven spikes was. This was at a time when there was only drug testing at the Olympic level and this was one of the first drugs to be banned (I think a US swimmer lost his Olympic gold medal in 1972 because the US coaches didn't realize that this was a part of his asthma medication).

It's all a difficult thing to deal with and I would like all sports to be drug free.

Beg your pardon? Synthetic EPO, by its very function (and as verified in clinical trials), increases red blood cells, i.e. hematocrit. That's why it's prescribed for people with anemia. Increased hematocrit leads to greater cardiovascular capacity over a period of time, i.e. endurance. That's why cyclists, race walkers, cross country skiiers, etc are always getting popped for it. Soccer is an endurance sport - players are running for 90 minutes. Anything that increases aerobic capacity is going to help those players. I advise you to read Tyler Hamilton's book for accounts of how EPO improves aerobic capacity. Or check out Michael Ashenden (like this interview here: http://nyvelocity.com/content/interview ... l-ashenden) one of the world's leading experts on blood doping. The link between EPO and increased performance is so clear that I'm amazed to hear someone say there is no link. It's completely inarguable.

Also, taking anabolic steroids and therefore increasing muscle mass is generally not going to be helpful in soccer because of its aerobic nature. A bigger athlete is just going to wear down quicker. It works for sprinters, body builders and NFL players, but not for soccer players.

[Tom_]

Yeah, it does look like EPO is accepted as a performance increasing substance in the literature. e.g. a quick and lazy search on PubMed turned up a review with this snippet:

The performance enhancing (ergogenic) effect of recombinant human Epo (rhEpo) in aerobic sports was investigated shortly after the medicine became available. It soon became clear that subcutaneous administration of rhEpo at doses of 60 to 350 U/kg body weight and week for 4 to 6 weeks increases O2max and the time to exhaustion substantially.

That's from Jelkmanm & Lundby (doi: 10.1182/blood-2011-02-303271). I didn't look at any of the studies it discussed so it could all be balls.

Anyway, from the look of the article NOS don't have anything to prove Juve WERE doping, just a couple of guys saying "I reckon they were!". I'm not saying they weren't, but from the article it appears that NOS is just using a bit of kite-flying to sell their show.

[Orange14]

I've read as much of the literature on performance enhancing drugs as I've been able and the conjecture that EPO makes huge improvements in performance is still arguable. If one looks at the Olympic distance races since 1968 (1500 m and up) when the east African runners first came to prominence there is no question that these runners have enjoyed a measured advantage over runners from elsewhere. Is it genetic, is it socio=cultural, is it training and living at altitude? One can go on with a number of other postulates. I have never seen any evidence that runners from this region ever failed a drug test and it's certainly unlikely that they had access to EPO. From my perspective there is a causal relationship at work here but one that has not been conclusively proven. Comparing football to cycling or distance running is one of apples to oranges. The latter two require a constant expenditure of energy and oxygen utilization for the length of the race whereas in football there are significant portions of the game with little action (and there is a 15 minute rest period as well) such that players are not running full out for 45 + 45 minutes.

I know that there are now statistics on the amount of running that players do during a game (I think that the shoes have transmission chips in them that collect such data). Consider a typical Ajax match; who does the most running? Not counting the keeper, I would think that Blind, the two wingers would be the top three followed by Eriksen. The least amount of running would be the two central defenders and the holding midfielder (if it's Poulsen). van Rhijn doesn't go forward all that much so he would be in a category just above those with de Jong (when he is in the midfield) and Sigthorsson. Maybe someone can point to the statistics here and we could see. Given this the only players I could see gaining an advantage from EPO would be Blind, and the two wingers; it would be a wash with all the other players.

[Tom_]

I've read as much of the literature on performance enhancing drugs as I've been able and the conjecture that EPO makes huge improvements in performance is still arguable.

I'd be interested to read more about that. Has that side of the argument made its way into the literature? If so, I'd appreciate a link to an article... sorry if we're going too far off topic here.

If one looks at the Olympic distance races since 1968 (1500 m and up) when the east African runners first came to prominence there is no question that these runners have enjoyed a measured advantage over runners from elsewhere. Is it genetic, is it socio=cultural, is it training and living at altitude?

Yeah, of course, like any biological question there are many factors involved. You can imagine that some athletes' genetics give them more natural oxygen capacity than other athletes who are on a doping regime but are not as lucky genetically. But if you consider elite runners, of course they have a physical advantage: you are looking at a biased sample, because the ones who are more likely to succeed at the sport are the ones who are naturally predisposed to doing well. For example, playing basketball doesn't make someone grow to be 6′8″, rather basketballers are often tall because that is a physical characteristic that enhances your likelihood to succeed in the sport.

Team ball games like football are a different story to running and cycling because the players are selected on more than just one physical trait. So you get players who are great on the ball but not very fast, or nippy but tire quickly, etc. etc. So I would think it's totally plausible that clubs have tried to manipulate their players' physiology to improve their physical attributes.

Comparing football to cycling or distance running is one of apples to oranges. The latter two require a constant expenditure of energy and oxygen utilization for the length of the race whereas in football there are significant portions of the game with little action (and there is a 15 minute rest period as well) such that players are not running full out for 45 + 45 minutes.

I guess this is a crucial point. So how would you characterize football? Repetitive, high-intensity "sprints" with short recovery periods? And you don't think increasing the maximum oxygen uptake would be useful for that? (I'm not trying to say it is).

[aveslacker]

I've read as much of the literature on performance enhancing drugs as I've been able and the conjecture that EPO makes huge improvements in performance is still arguable. If one looks at the Olympic distance races since 1968 (1500 m and up) when the east African runners first came to prominence there is no question that these runners have enjoyed a measured advantage over runners from elsewhere. Is it genetic, is it socio=cultural, is it training and living at altitude? One can go on with a number of other postulates. I have never seen any evidence that runners from this region ever failed a drug test and it's certainly unlikely that they had access to EPO. From my perspective there is a causal relationship at work here but one that has not been conclusively proven. Comparing football to cycling or distance running is one of apples to oranges. The latter two require a constant expenditure of energy and oxygen utilization for the length of the race whereas in football there are significant portions of the game with little action (and there is a 15 minute rest period as well) such that players are not running full out for 45 + 45 minutes.

I know that there are now statistics on the amount of running that players do during a game (I think that the shoes have transmission chips in them that collect such data). Consider a typical Ajax match; who does the most running? Not counting the keeper, I would think that Blind, the two wingers would be the top three followed by Eriksen. The least amount of running would be the two central defenders and the holding midfielder (if it's Poulsen). van Rhijn doesn't go forward all that much so he would be in a category just above those with de Jong (when he is in the midfield) and Sigthorsson. Maybe someone can point to the statistics here and we could see. Given this the only players I could see gaining an advantage from EPO would be Blind, and the two wingers; it would be a wash with all the other players.

Lots of red herrings here. For starters, nobody said anything about "huge" improvements. You don't need huge improvements at the top level of sport to make a difference. Incremental ones will do. And there is simply no basis for arguing that EPO doesn't increase aerobic performance. Put it this way: if it didn't make any difference, why is it banned? And why have so many top-notch athletes been found using it?

And I have to disagree with the notion that comparing soccer to cycling is apples to oranges. The point is that both of them are relatively more aerobic than, say, a 100 meter sprint. In the final of the 2010 World Cup, Xavi covered almost 15 kilometers. 15 km in 90+ minutes, regardless of whether there is a 15 minute break in between, is significantly aerobic. Perhaps the gain from EPO will be less for a soccer player than it will be for a cyclist, but it will still provide a soccer player more benefit than it would an NFL player. Over 90 minutes that adds up to being able to cover more ground.

The example of the African distance runners misses the point. People have natural advantages over other people in sports, as East African distance runners might over people from other areas. An East African distance runner, however, is still going to get a boost from EPO, and since he already has an advantage over others, is going to be that much better for it.

Re: literature linking EPO and enhanced performance. I did a quick google search for "erythropoietin + performance + enhancer" and this is the first article that came up: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439521/. From the article:

The reason for doping with blood or rHuEpo was evident. There was a direct relationship between Hb levels and increased performance (Ekblom, 1996). In exercising rats, increased Hb levels resulted in increased in O2 delivery to the brain and increased muscle fatty acids and glycogen with reduced accumulation of lactate (Lavoie et al., 1998). An improvement of up to 5–10% was estimated in humans (Birkeland et al., 2000; Wilber, 2002) due to increased maximum capacity to transport and utilize oxygen (VO2max), velocity at VO2max and maximal aerobic power (Kanstrup and Ekblom, 1984; Ekblom, 1996; Ashenden et al., 2001). Each of the enhancements can translate directly into a change in time-trial performance and in long-distance events (Levine and Stray-Gundersen, 1997). The benefit from increased Hb was comparable whether the increase was due to transfusion or rHuEpo administration (Buick et al., 1980; Ekblom, 1996; Birkeland et al., 2000; Lippi et al., 2006b), suggesting that the improvement was due to increased Hb and resulting increased O2-carrying capacity, not the method by which Hb levels were raised.

[Orange14]

And I have to disagree with the notion that comparing soccer to cycling is apples to oranges. The point is that both of them are relatively more aerobic than, say, a 100 meter sprint. In the final of the 2010 World Cup, Xavi covered almost 15 kilometers. 15 km in 90+ minutes, regardless of whether there is a 15 minute break in between, is significantly aerobic. Perhaps the gain from EPO will be less for a soccer player than it will be for a cyclist, but it will still provide a soccer player more benefit than it would an NFL player. Over 90 minutes that adds up to being able to cover more ground.

Re: literature linking EPO and enhanced performance. I did a quick google search for "erythropoietin + performance + enhancer" and this is the first article that came up: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2439521/. From the article:

The reason for doping with blood or rHuEpo was evident. There was a direct relationship between Hb levels and increased performance (Ekblom, 1996). In exercising rats, increased Hb levels resulted in increased in O2 delivery to the brain and increased muscle fatty acids and glycogen with reduced accumulation of lactate (Lavoie et al., 1998). An improvement of up to 5–10% was estimated in humans (Birkeland et al., 2000; Wilber, 2002) due to increased maximum capacity to transport and utilize oxygen (VO2max), velocity at VO2max and maximal aerobic power (Kanstrup and Ekblom, 1984; Ekblom, 1996; Ashenden et al., 2001). Each of the enhancements can translate directly into a change in time-trial performance and in long-distance events (Levine and Stray-Gundersen, 1997). The benefit from increased Hb was comparable whether the increase was due to transfusion or rHuEpo administration (Buick et al., 1980; Ekblom, 1996; Birkeland et al., 2000; Lippi et al., 2006b), suggesting that the improvement was due to increased Hb and resulting increased O2-carrying capacity, not the method by which Hb levels were raised.

More important than oxygen utilization is the ability to deal with lactic acid build up in the muscles. A lot more research has been done on this than EPO, that's for sure (this was being looked at in distance runners in the 1960s IIRC by Bowerman at University of Oregon where a lot of the best US distance runners developed. I know that Counselman who was the swimming coach at Indiana (where I got my PhD and I did audit his biomechanics and sports performance classes) studied this extensively and tailored workouts to deal with it. This is why resting periods in football (and by this I mean the slowing down of players) is important and why it's different from cycling or long distance running where the stress on the muscles is much more constant and at a higher level. The problem with all the research is that we really don't know what the true percentage of enhancement is relative to the other parameters. In the days before the availability of EPO blood doping (the removal of blood a month or two before a competition and subsequent infusion just prior) was allegedly quite common in cycling. Lasse Viren who won double gold medals in the 5 & 10K runs in both the 1972 and 1976 Olympic games was always a suspect here but it was never proved. Blood doping is quite difficult to prove in any event whereas EPO use is.

I don't think we are ever going to be able to figure out whether there is 'significant' performance improvement in football with the use of EPO. There are too many variables here and I suspect that at best it's likely less relevant than innate talent.

[SPL]

At cricket today my pal's 16 year old son told me he has adopted Dortmund and Ajax as his teams having watched alot of them on ESPN and enjoyed the football they play. He then started talking about Eriksen knew about Fischer and then shocked me by saying how good is Lucas Andersen.!! I had to say apart from one game as a sub I have not seen enough of him . Anyway all my mates know I love Ajax but its great to know a16 year old english kid is following our club. He also said english football is ruined by money and knows our club is famous for youth and producing our own,even though the 3 mentioned are Danish.

Just thought I would share this little bit of encouraging news.I am really impressed with him!

[Cruijff]

At cricket today my pal's 16 year old son told me he has adopted Dortmund and Ajax as his teams having watched alot of them on ESPN and enjoyed the football they play. He then started talking about Eriksen knew about Fischer and then shocked me by saying how good is Lucas Andersen.!! I had to say apart from one game as a sub I have not seen enough of him . Anyway all my mates know I love Ajax but its great to know a16 year old english kid is following our club. He also said english football is ruined by money and knows our club is famous for youth and producing our own,even though the 3 mentioned are Danish.

Just thought I would share this little bit of encouraging news.I am really impressed with him!

Nice to read.

Next season you're gonna plan a trip to an Ajax match. Will that be your first?

[SPL]

Hi Cruijff. I came over in April 2011 for Heracles game ,my first visit to the Arena and went to deToekomst on the Saturday afternoon as well . I am looking to come for a week in August with the wife and will wait for the fixtures as I will have to watch a game. I have said before but I have an Aunt in Amstelveen and my cousin and his wife live in Huizen ie near Naarden and Bussum so will have to visit both ,as well as the game and also need to see Amsterdam etc.Hope to meet up with you .Also need to watch a game when Saddler Ian is over having twice been to watch Ajax at Southampton with him and SE6.

[Cruijff]

Yes I know Huizen. Have been there several times. Saddler Ian has a season ticket in section 411, right? Ian, how many times a year do you come over?

I remember that Heracles match quite well. Not a very good one, to say the least. But a very important win towards the title with an opening goal by Oleguer. Thank you goalie Pasveer for the assistance. You are looking for a week in August? In September (I think around 12 September) there might be an option to combine a Champions League game with an Eredivisie match.

[Orange14]

The Swiss Ramble has posted a good overview of the financial status of all 20 teams in the English league: http://swissramble.blogspot.com/2013/06 ... s-are.html You can see how important TV money is to those teams and how few were truly profitable.

[Amol]

Just read that David Endt will be replaced as team manager. What are our thoughts about this change?

I don't really care either way personally - but all the message boards on ajax.netwerk, ajaxfans etc are not too happy about this.

[martinkohout]

Summer reading? Saw this in this morning's paper.... http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/27/sport ... ref=soccer

[Manneken Pis]

Here's a nice story about the days when football was a simpler, and probably more fun game:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... n-west-ham

[SE6Ajacied]

Here's a nice story about the days when football was a simpler, and probably more fun:

http://www.theguardian.com/football/blo ... n-west-ham

I read that earlier today and remember it at the time as well. Great story and amazing twist on how they actually tracked the guy down for an interview - bit of poetic licence about the accents though as not that much difference between a South Midlands (eg Rushden where this chap is from) and a London accent.

[Manneken Pis]

A really interesting article about Ferguson's formula for success from the Havard Business Journal:

http://hbr.org/2013/10/fergusons-formula/ar/1

[Philippe]

A french magazine dedicated to youth football coaching is publishing a 16 pages long article about Ajax in the lastest issue : www.vestiaires-magazine.com

[afcajax73]

i feel sorry for the guy (i did the same injury less than 12 months ago, and it is real agony), but maybe we dodged a bullet here..


Midfielder Marco van Ginkel, 20, will miss the rest of Chelsea's season after the injury he suffered at Swindon on Tuesday night was confirmed as a cruciate knee ligament injury.

(Daily mail)

[ofey]

If Marco Van Ginkel had joined us, he might have broken his leg earlier or he may have been the star of the show.
We'll never know.
Unfortunate. I think he's good but it's not our concern.

Back to the problem at hand
We have a midfield three of Duarte-Poulsen-DeJong.
That's NOT ideal.

I hope we sign someone in January.

[saddlerian]

Back to the problem at hand
We have a midfield three of Duarte-Poulsen-DeJong.
That's NOT ideal.

I hope we sign someone in January.

This seems ludicrous!!! the transfer window closed only a few weeks ago and we're waiting for it to re-open in January!!!! Why the hell are we doing that? If the job had been done properly before the season, we wouldn't be in the sh*t we are now!!!

Just come back from summer holiday and we're waiting for the January Sales....isn't that a sort of female mentality? (sorry girls, if you're offended!!!)

[Orange14]

To all you nattering nabobs of negativism, just who would you have signed back in August? Get real, this club is not going to spend €10M for the next great thing. Have you all forgotten about Sulejmani, Oleguer, maybe Sigthorrson, etc? This is not the EPL where players are clamoring to move to because of huge salaries and world wide television exposure. It's the Eredivisie where long suffering fans have to watch pirate Internet feeds of their favorite club. Ajax management felt van Ginkel was the player best suited and you either have faith in their decision making or you do not. Maher has failed to convince at PSV (and he's either injured right now or out of favor) and he's not on van Gaal's radar for the NT at this moment.

Maybe we should have entered the Thiago Alcantara bidding war with the other big clubs in Europe. That surely would have shown the club's commitment rather than purchasing Duarte (and it's still a little too early to say whether he will work out or not).

I would still like to know who all you armchair managers think that we should have bought!

Rant Over and back to your local television station for normal programming.

[SPL]

Catching up with your comments Oranje no Dutch midfielder of any note springs to mind that we could have bought apart from Maher ,who seems to be struggling at PSV . Seems we may have paid about 8m euros for V Ginkel. With Poulsen Schone and de Jong all experienced maybe another young talent from abroad,Belgium seems to be the place for talent at present.Duarte does not seem to rate that high but lets wait to see how he progresses.

I still say Enoh could be used as DM for such games like GAE tonight with Poulsen playing in CL .

At my last cricket game this week, 3 of the 4 days were sunny, most of my mates especially Spurs fans were going on about how good Eriksen is and at £11m was a steal. I told them I know how good he is and yes £11m was a steal. Still cannot get my head round to him playing for Spurs! I also said that every good player over 20 has now been sold and we now have loads of teenage talent of whom only Fischer has broken through and he is suffering 2nd season blues.

[afcajax73]

What does anyone think of Elia? as far as i could see, we could have had him for a decent price, but we were only interested in a loan deal when they were only interested in a sale.


I know hes rather disruptive, but who knows.. he was in last ditch street in terms of his career from what i could see.

[Philippe]

http://www.theguardian.com/football/201 ... ons-league