21 Dec 2011: Ajax - AZ

[acab]

@ Monkey Tonk
Why do you want Ajax to "give" the game to az? If this happens, i can tell you what happens next. An Ajax fan will sit among az supporters for the game in january, he will invade the pitch and pretend to atack Ajax-palyer. De Boer will call the team back in the dressingroom and than?

Because I want Ajax to take the high road, as well as the responsibility, and move on. There is nothing to be gained here (at least not anything I care about). Ajax should thank their lucky stars that the goalie was unharmed. That's enough for me at this point, because the alternative would have torpedoed the Ajax name.

I doubt your vision of the future will materialize. If it walks like a duck, and talks a duck, it's probably a ... duck.

Nothing to be gained??? Uhmmmm, what about the cup? And i don't see how 1 drunken 19-yeard ole boy can "torpedo" the Ajax-name?

[Orange14]

I believe Esteban grew up in Costa Rica. Middle America. Have you ever been there? I'm familiar with some of Middle America. Lots of guns and gang violence. Plenty of senseless killings. Similar to the US in that sense. Cops always assume a weapon here. They have no choice. That's why people always have to show their hands when they get pulled over on the freeway. You name two war zones, but that only shows me how little you know of the world.

In any case, the self defense argument that I outlined will be used here. No doubt about that.

As to the punishment for the hooligan. Let's say there were 40 or 50 thousand people in the stands. The attacker basically stole their day. That's 40 or 50 thousand days... That's the kind of crime it is to me. I realize he can never pay that back, but it does put his little escapade on a scale that I would much prefer over the soft justice this moron will see.

Costa Rica is a very safe country and there are lots of US retired people who live there because of the climate and other things. It has a first rate medical system and crime is very low. It's government is stable unlike some of the neighboring countries. My daughter went there on holiday last year for 10 days and we were never concerned for her safety.

I'm not sure how much Ajax stadium officials could have done to prevent this. Unless one is going to have lots of officials on the pitch ready to intercept the weird person who wants to do something like this or construct a 10 foot high fence, it's very difficult to prevent. I watch a lot of Euro football and certainly don't see fences like this in Italy, Spain, England or Germany. I agree with you that this guy should be punished and there should be strong laws to prevent such things from happening. Imagine that this took place during a CL match.

[Monkey Tonk]

I had never heard of your name before, acab. Turns out it's tattooed on the attacker's back. Go figure.

[acab]

I believe Esteban grew up in Costa Rica. Middle America. Have you ever been there? I'm familiar with some of Middle America. Lots of guns and gang violence. Plenty of senseless killings. Similar to the US in that sense. Cops always assume a weapon here. They have no choice. That's why people always have to show their hands when they get pulled over on the freeway. You name two war zones, but that only shows me how little you know of the world.

In any case, the self defense argument that I outlined will be used here. No doubt about that.

As to the punishment for the hooligan. Let's say there were 40 or 50 thousand people in the stands. The attacker basically stole their day. That's 40 or 50 thousand days... That's the kind of crime it is to me. I realize he can never pay that back, but it does put his little escapade on a scale that I would much prefer over the soft justice this moron will see.

Costa Rica is a very safe country and there are lots of US retired people who live there because of the climate and other things. It has a first rate medical system and crime is very low. It's government is stable unlike some of the neighboring countries. My daughter went there on holiday last year for 10 days and we were never concerned for her safety.

I'm not sure how much Ajax stadium officials could have done to prevent this. Unless one is going to have lots of officials on the pitch ready to intercept the weird person who wants to do something like this or construct a 10 foot high fence, it's very difficult to prevent. I watch a lot of Euro football and certainly don't see fences like this in Italy, Spain, England or Germany. I agree with you that this guy should be punished and there should be strong laws to prevent such things from happening. Imagine that this took place during a CL match.

it actualy happend, when a man trew a Catalan flag in Figo's face

[acab]

I had never heard of your name before, acab. Turns out it's tattooed on the attacker's back. Go figure.

Hmmm, very strange

[souras84]

First of all @Monkey Tonk. What you said about Costa Rica could get you in "trouble". I dont have any problem with your opinion, but some could label you a racist, when all you say is a discription of certain behaviours. So no problem for me.
As for the hooligans, chech Aris Salonika's GK in 2009 (from 0.30 minute on) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uh7zZQqignU If you want a discription I will provide you.

[Philippe]

We live in different parts of the world, my friend.

From where I stand, kicking repeatedly someone who's lying on the floor can not be called self-defense.

However, it's clear that a single drunk did serious damage to the Ajax club and supporters.

[Over Pasanens Head]

Couldn't they all have just shook each others hands as Mr Blatter suggested earlier in the year?

On a serious note I just think that the incident is just a symptom of the times we live in where anger, rage and anarchy are the norm.

I feel very sad for the beautiful game.

[SE6Ajacied]

Just picking this up now - completely forgot about the game and just saw the story on the BBC before I realised it was Ajax that were involved.

A few observations from me looking at it completely fresh today

1) I agree with SPL that in this countyr the goalkeeper would likely be charged by the Police. Duncan Ferguson went to prison in Scotland in the 1990's for a headbut on an opponent and John Terry was charged yesterday with alleged rascist abuse of Anton Ferdindand of QPR during a televised game back in October. Don't forget the Eric Cantona incident in 1996 as well.
2) Very difficult to prevent this sort of thing, there are obviously stewards at the game and one was in hot pursuit in this case. Saying that, with the moat around the pitch it probably took a while for this idiot to clamber out of the stands and onto the pitch so would be interesting to see exactly what happened (which will presumambly be established in due course).
3) I can sort of see both sides here. The goalkeeper surely over-reacted and could have moved away but I can also see how he probably feels justified in what he's done. Diffuicult to see how the referee had a choice in the circumstances but the cynicism of both sides now is a bit sickening. AZ took the players off in protest at the red card surely which is surely an argueable position whether you agree with it or not but citing player safety is just nonsense - I'm sure anyone in the front row getting up for the toilet would have been surrounded by stewards for the rest of the game so this just wasn't ever likely to happen again. I just hope this idiot is banned for life and made an example of so that others don't go getting any similar ideas.

[Philippe]

On a different video from a different angle, it seems clear that the guy tried to hit the goalie and almost made it.
http://www.telegraaf.nl/telesport/voetb ... sn=voetbal
Bloody stupid.

[souras84]

Is it true that the GK is officialy not suspended?

[Philippe]

Yep. Red card confirmed but no suspension.

[acab]

KNVB started with the bullshit once again. Ор just want to wash their hands. I'm curious to see the decision about the game. The right thing is to give us 4-0, and az must be punished hard, becouse of Verbeek stupid reaction.

[Orange14]

My gut feeling is that Verbeek saw Ajax come out very committed and working towards a victory. From a psychological perspective he did not want to incur a loss prior to the break and leave his team wondering if they could win the league match in January. Pretty cynical calculation given he was playing a team that was missing a number of starters. I was impressed with the defensive commitment from Ajax and probably saw more tackles in less than one half than are seen in an entire match!

[ajaxusa]

In all my years of participating in Ajax discussions online, this has to be the most disheartening. How did we go from a place where intelligent footy fans dissect games and club decisions with insight and humor, to this? Very sad. AjaxTalk is becoming BigSoccer.

[SPL]

Agree with you but I do not think there's anything to be happy about with what happened last night .

Things will be back to normal in a day or 2 until the Dutch FA kick us out .

Only 2 weeks and we play Almere !! And to really cheer everyone up we start the second half in January with 2 away games Az and then Rotterdam and the Fword.

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

I am shocked by what happened. Everything that has been said on these boards have had some truth to it (except for the very stereotypical Costa Rica comment, they dont even have a military by the way). AZ's decision to leave the pitch was a stupid one, they could have easily put the game under protest and kept on playing. The KNVB cannot under any circumstance reward a team for stepping off the pitch and disobeying an order from the ref. Ajax should be fined and should play a couple of games with an empty house as punishment, but should be allowed to go through as a punishment towards AZ.

Either way I share the same sentiment...it is very sad to see this happen.

[Van basten]

Wat message this decision will send to supporters? That you can attack opponents player and hit him, untill he hits you back and then is sent off?

[Monkey Tonk]

First of all @Monkey Tonk. What you said about Costa Rica could get you in "trouble". I dont have any problem with your opinion, but some could label you a racist, when all you say is a discription of certain behaviours. So no problem for me.

Doesn't racism have to at least involve a race? lol My experience with Middle America, just for the record, is mostly Mexican. I love Mexico. And Mexican culture is great. But the bestiality of the (drug related) violence, including that filtering into America, would shock the daylight out of most. CR may be very different, so I could have been more precise in that regard. However, we we're talking about the goalie and his reflex reaction to being attacked, and so I presented it as a, admittedly very general, 'this part of the world' (compared to Europe) issue. Even here in the US, because everybody can own a gun, I would automatically assume the worst, if attacked like that goalie, and sort things out afterwards; not during the attack. So indeed a life or death issue at the moment of the attack. What would you have said if the attacked goalie, with one karate kick, had killed the attacker? My general impression is that many people in Europe would blame the goalie.

Looking at the tape it is quite clear to me that the goalie purposefully kicks the guy only in the legs. If he had truly wanted to harm the guy he would have kicked him in the head. So, at least to me, that was quite a self-constrained display of self-defense. The goalie did good. He defended himself, and didn't injure the attacker. High marks from a perspective of martial arts.

It would take a while to come down from an adrenaline rush like that, so with that in mind I could understand that the goalie's concentration on the game was no longer at the required level. AZ was correct to walk off the pitch, and I would have wanted De Boer to do the same thing in the reverse scenario. The sad thing is that one idiot affects the enjoyment of the game for thousands and thousands of people (and not just for this game, because this is the type of behavior that creates more fences). I suppose it's kind of nice of Holland that people there would take the attacker right back into society, as if nothing had happened, but to me that reflects a larger issue of not holding people accountable. I love people that do crazy things. In many (non-violent) ways the crazier, the better. But not without accountability. People that do crazy things, while knowing they will be held accountable, are courageous, and they include many innovators. But to do crazy stuff, while already knowing that nobody will really hold you accountable, is cowardly. The real crazy thing? Everybody, deep down, wants to be held accountable.

[acab]

Well, it seams, i can't change your mind, and you can't change mine,so...
But what kind of concentration for Esteban, he don't need concentration to take a shower, he was sent off, do you remember?
The focus for me is not on the invader, but on the cynical, not sporting reaction of az. I would never, never wanna see my club doing the same. You stay and fight. You may loose, you may break some legs, but this is a psyhology of a real grand

[Monkey Tonk]

But what kind of concentration for Esteban, he don't need concentration to take a shower, he was sent off, do you remember?

You're absolutely right. lol

My focus was on the other aspects of the incident. I wouldn't know what to say about the goalie being sent off. Speechless about that one. Doesn't look like the KNVB is honoring the red card either.

[Monkey Tonk]

In all my years of participating in Ajax discussions online, this has to be the most disheartening. How did we go from a place where intelligent footy fans dissect games and club decisions with insight and humor, to this? Very sad. AjaxTalk is becoming BigSoccer.

Strange comment, coming from a moderator. Something very serious happened at an Ajax game. There's nothing humorous about it.

[souras84]

Monkey, as I have said above, I'm from Greece and this kind of behaviour is common here :D Anyway and because I've seen alot of that here, the GK wasn't right to kick him. he did allright to avoid him and then the security who was already there could handle him. Anyhow. People tend to be suprised, when it only takes a person with something on his mind to do this. It's not the first and certainly not the last time. But, as I have read here and greek reporters say that Ajax's reaction to the incident is amazing. Such kind of reaction would never happen here.

[Frans]

Looking at the tape it is quite clear to me that the goalie purposefully kicks the guy only in the legs. If he had truly wanted to harm the guy he would have kicked him in the head. So, at least to me, that was quite a self-constrained display of self-defense. The goalie did good. He defended himself, and didn't injure the attacker. High marks from a perspective of martial arts.

To me it looks like for the second kick he is circling around trying to get at the head/body but the guy on the ground moves with him and blocks with his legs.

I think the first kick was an instinctive reaction but the second one is out of anger - it takes him a couple of seconds to wind it up and there is clearly no threat anymore.

I agree with Venezuelan Ajacied about what the punishment should be. AZ should forfeit and Ajax should be playing in an empty stadium for a couple of games (and probably the fans should be banned from travelling to AZ after the break)

[acab]

O, and now amateurs from GVVV for the 1/4-finals. Can we play that game on an empty stadium
The whole "loting:

PSV speelt thuis tegen NEC.
Ajax/AZ speelt thuis GVVV.
Vitesse speelt thuis tegen Heerenveen.
Heracles Almelo speelt thuis tegen RKC Waalwijk.