Ajax Coaches

[bryan]

I appreciate many types of football, as long as it's done well.

I'd rather see a well executed 4-4-2 instead of a shoddily put together 4-3-3.

It's also important for a team to be tactically diverse in order to keep the opponent guessing.

[Van basten]

[quote="Kowalczyk"]Philippe: I kind of agree with you, don't get me wrong. I also believe that Ajax should always go for great football and great results. That's our goal, of course. That must always be our ambition.

However, if you look at where we come from (the football and the results in the 2004-'05 and 2005-'06 seasons) you will have to understand that we can't jump from 'absolutely shit' to 'absolutely fantastic' in one jump. Sometimes, as a supporter, you need to be pleased with improvement. That's the case right now. We're not fantastic; we're improving.

Ajax have 8 points more than we had last year. We score more goals. Concede less goals. We play better football (much better football, in fact). We're 3rd on the table (last year we were 9th or something). We're improving.

Be happy with the improwe??? We are not Vitese or NEC, we are Ajax. We should go for Eredivisie champions title every year. Yes, last year we played terrible in season (before play-offs),but that doesn't mean, that if we finished in 4 place last year,we should be happy finishing 3 this year. We are Ajax and every year i expected that we will win the Eredivisie, or at least we will battle for the title to the end. i could undestand that we struggling if we had bad players, but the last 3 years (including this year) we had really good team, and i don't understand how can we be satisfied to be 3 after AZ!?

[aveslacker]

Be happy with the improwe??? We are not Vitese or NEC, we are Ajax. We should go for Eredivisie champions title every year. Yes, last year we played terrible in season (before play-offs),but that doesn't mean, that if we finished in 4 place last year,we should be happy finishing 3 this year. We are Ajax and every year i expected that we will win the Eredivisie, or at least we will battle for the title to the end. i could undestand that we struggling if we had bad players, but the last 3 years (including this year) we had really good team, and i don't understand how can we be satisfied to be 3 after AZ!?

Who said anything about being satisfied? I personally would like to see Ajax win the Eredivisie while playing attractive, winning soccer every year. But the reality is that the last 2-3 years, we have not had a really good team, we've had a mediocre team which was occasionally saved by individual flashes of brilliance by a few players.

Expectations are a good thing, but when you're competing against the likes of psv and AZ, and you've fallen off your pedestal, it can take a while to get back up. This isn't accomplished in half a season.

It is, imo, foolish to expect that Ajax will win the Eredivise this year (although they still could) when you look at how crap they've been in the last couple of years. It is not, however, foolish to expect that Ajax are on the right path to the summit, which I think they are. But it doesn't happen overnight, and saying "we're Ajax" doesn't make it so.

[Van basten]

Be happy with the improwe??? We are not Vitese or NEC, we are Ajax. We should go for Eredivisie champions title every year. Yes, last year we played terrible in season (before play-offs),but that doesn't mean, that if we finished in 4 place last year,we should be happy finishing 3 this year. We are Ajax and every year i expected that we will win the Eredivisie, or at least we will battle for the title to the end. i could undestand that we struggling if we had bad players, but the last 3 years (including this year) we had really good team, and i don't understand how can we be satisfied to be 3 after AZ!?

Who said anything about being satisfied? I personally would like to see Ajax win the Eredivisie while playing attractive, winning soccer every year. But the reality is that the last 2-3 years, we have not had a really good team, we've had a mediocre team which was occasionally saved by individual flashes of brilliance by a few players.

Expectations are a good thing, but when you're competing against the likes of psv and AZ, and you've fallen off your pedestal, it can take a while to get back up. This isn't accomplished in half a season.

It is, imo, foolish to expect that Ajax will win the Eredivise this year (although they still could) when you look at how crap they've been in the last couple of years. It is not, however, foolish to expect that Ajax are on the right path to the summit, which I think they are. But it doesn't happen overnight, and saying "we're Ajax" doesn't make it so.

It sounds like excuse - we played crap last two years so it's nothing wrong if this year we will also be second or third. this is buls*it. and i totaly disagre with you that we have mediocre team. This team can win, that proves our start (11 straight win), but then something hapend,and from 1 place we went to 3. Maybe you want to say that AZ has better players then Ajax? If this this year team is mediocre for you then what will happend when Klaas, Wesley, Heitinga, Grygera and some others will leave us? Or maybe you think that they will play for ajax forever?
I just want to say that we have team that potencial can win Eredivisie, and now just after half race we are 8 points behind PSV, so it's realy disapointing for me. it will be realy hard to fight back but i believe that we can do that and if we will finish second, that will be disapointing season for me. But it's just my opinion, everyone can have his own

[AjaxPDX]

I sometimes get tired of the trophy expectations dressed up in "we are Ajax!" comments. It often sounds like people have some kind of condescending belief of entitlement. So what if we're Ajax? Big deal. Trophies aren't handed out based on name. They're earned. To look at last year's team, and then to say we expect to win the league this year because "we are Ajax" is just ridiculous. Last year's team was crap, this year's team is better, but they're not there yet. Yes, of course you always WANT to win the title, but to say we automatically have some right of entitlement to expect to win the league every year makes no sense to me. They have to earn it on the field, and based on the squad and performances of the past 2-3 years, they're not quite good enough yet.

[aveslacker]

It sounds like excuse - we played crap last two years so it's nothing wrong if this year we will also be second or third. this is buls*it. and i totaly disagre with you that we have mediocre team. This team can win, that proves our start (11 straight win), but then something hapend,and from 1 place we went to 3. Maybe you want to say that AZ has better players then Ajax? If this this year team is mediocre for you then what will happend when Klaas, Wesley, Heitinga, Grygera and some others will leave us? Or maybe you think that they will play for ajax forever?
I just want to say that we have team that potencial can win Eredivisie, and now just after half race we are 8 points behind PSV, so it's realy disapointing for me. it will be realy hard to fight back but i believe that we can do that and if we will finish second, that will be disapointing season for me. But it's just my opinion, everyone can have his own

It's not an excuse, and it's not bullshit, but thanks for that pleasant barnyard expletive.

I never said that this year's team is mediocre. I said (and have said consistently) that last year's team, and the team before that, were mediocre, which is exactly what they were. I think this year's team is significantly better than they were last year -- there is more talent across the board and, importantly, certain key players (Sneijder is a good example) are in much better form.

What I've said consistently is that this team is better than it was but still has a long way to go. Good teams don't just happen overnight -- it takes a while (and good coaching) to build them. It also takes a while to develop the right mindset in a team, to get them to the point where they can shrug off bad results and keep playing well. I think they suffered from this after losing to p$v -- it took them a while to find their bearings again. It takes time to put all these moving parts together, and to think otherwise is blinkered. The results this season have been very encouraging.

Who knows? They could get hot and catch p$v (it would also involve p$v losing, which they don't seem to do too often), and I would be elated if that happened. But more realistically, they have dug themselves a bit of a hole, and they'll need to play well and for p$v to slip up -- in other words, it isn't entirely in their hands. Given that, and assuming the club continues to improve in terms of quality and results, I think this season can be termed a success.

Now, assuming all these things come to pass, I think next year we can consider ourselves genuine contenders, at which time it will be perfectly justifiable to have expectations of winning the eredivisie. But this year has to be seen as a rebuilding year, given how crap Ajax has been for the last couple of years.

[Venezuelan Ajacied]

It sounds like excuse - we played crap last two years so it's nothing wrong if this year we will also be second or third. this is buls*it. and i totaly disagre with you that we have mediocre team. This team can win, that proves our start (11 straight win), but then something hapend,and from 1 place we went to 3. Maybe you want to say that AZ has better players then Ajax? If this this year team is mediocre for you then what will happend when Klaas, Wesley, Heitinga, Grygera and some others will leave us? Or maybe you think that they will play for ajax forever?
I just want to say that we have team that potencial can win Eredivisie, and now just after half race we are 8 points behind PSV, so it's realy disapointing for me. it will be realy hard to fight back but i believe that we can do that and if we will finish second, that will be disapointing season for me. But it's just my opinion, everyone can have his own

It's not an excuse, and it's not bullshit, but thanks for that pleasant barnyard expletive.

I never said that this year's team is mediocre. I said (and have said consistently) that last year's team, and the team before that, were mediocre, which is exactly what they were. I think this year's team is significantly better than they were last year -- there is more talent across the board and, importantly, certain key players (Sneijder is a good example) are in much better form.

What I've said consistently is that this team is better than it was but still has a long way to go. Good teams don't just happen overnight -- it takes a while (and good coaching) to build them. It also takes a while to develop the right mindset in a team, to get them to the point where they can shrug off bad results and keep playing well. I think they suffered from this after losing to p$v -- it took them a while to find their bearings again. It takes time to put all these moving parts together, and to think otherwise is blinkered. The results this season have been very encouraging.

Who knows? They could get hot and catch p$v (it would also involve p$v losing, which they don't seem to do too often), and I would be elated if that happened. But more realistically, they have dug themselves a bit of a hole, and they'll need to play well and for p$v to slip up -- in other words, it isn't entirely in their hands. Given that, and assuming the club continues to improve in terms of quality and results, I think this season can be termed a success.

Now, assuming all these things come to pass, I think next year we can consider ourselves genuine contenders, at which time it will be perfectly justifiable to have expectations of winning the eredivisie. But this year has to be seen as a rebuilding year, given how crap Ajax has been for the last couple of years.

I fully agree with what you say AVE, my only gripe is that WE ARE AJAX.... we live with an eternal stigma since the Bosman ruling. That make it almost impossible too BUILD a team. We just dont have enough time to put the pieces together. For me this was the year, the year we had good players in every freakin position and yet we are far from first place.

Next season a bunch off players will leave, Sneijder,Grygera and maybe some others. And we will have to rebuild all over again and that in term will bring growing pains, but i guess that`s just the burden we ajax fans must carry :sad:. We need too seize the oportunity`s we get and this season was one of those oportunity`s. ;)

There`s still half a season to go, lets just pray for the best :yes: (and for a PSV downfall)

[Van basten]

It sounds like excuse - we played crap last two years so it's nothing wrong if this year we will also be second or third. this is buls*it. and i totaly disagre with you that we have mediocre team. This team can win, that proves our start (11 straight win), but then something hapend,and from 1 place we went to 3. Maybe you want to say that AZ has better players then Ajax? If this this year team is mediocre for you then what will happend when Klaas, Wesley, Heitinga, Grygera and some others will leave us? Or maybe you think that they will play for ajax forever?
I just want to say that we have team that potencial can win Eredivisie, and now just after half race we are 8 points behind PSV, so it's realy disapointing for me. it will be realy hard to fight back but i believe that we can do that and if we will finish second, that will be disapointing season for me. But it's just my opinion, everyone can have his own

It's not an excuse, and it's not bullshit, but thanks for that pleasant barnyard expletive.

I never said that this year's team is mediocre. I said (and have said consistently) that last year's team, and the team before that, were mediocre, which is exactly what they were. I think this year's team is significantly better than they were last year -- there is more talent across the board and, importantly, certain key players (Sneijder is a good example) are in much better form.

What I've said consistently is that this team is better than it was but still has a long way to go. Good teams don't just happen overnight -- it takes a while (and good coaching) to build them. It also takes a while to develop the right mindset in a team, to get them to the point where they can shrug off bad results and keep playing well. I think they suffered from this after losing to p$v -- it took them a while to find their bearings again. It takes time to put all these moving parts together, and to think otherwise is blinkered. The results this season have been very encouraging.

Who knows? They could get hot and catch p$v (it would also involve p$v losing, which they don't seem to do too often), and I would be elated if that happened. But more realistically, they have dug themselves a bit of a hole, and they'll need to play well and for p$v to slip up -- in other words, it isn't entirely in their hands. Given that, and assuming the club continues to improve in terms of quality and results, I think this season can be termed a success.

Now, assuming all these things come to pass, I think next year we can consider ourselves genuine contenders, at which time it will be perfectly justifiable to have expectations of winning the eredivisie. But this year has to be seen as a rebuilding year, given how crap Ajax has been for the last couple of years.

You say that last year we were crap, i agree, that we played tragicaly in eredivisie (until play-offs), but we weren't so bad in Ch.league did we? And then - the play-offs, we played well this for matches (don't forget cup final). That was real ajax, who showed his real strenght that season and i would never say that i expect title this year if we would lost last year play-offs to Feyenord or Groenigen or we played crap in ch.league. For me last year team was good (i talk about the players, not about our performance in Eredivisie 'regular' season), and that, that we couldn't improve our real potention that was Dany's problem i think. i think we lost many of games because we were weak on our psichological and that is a coach problem. i see our squad this year and i know how we can play (that 11 games this year), so i say that we are not worse than PSV and AZ, but somehow we are 8 points behind PSV..

[Manneken Pis]

so i say that we are not worse than PSV and AZ, but somehow we are 8 points behind PSV..

"The league table never lies"

:sad: :nooo: X'C

[aveslacker]

You say that last year we were crap, i agree, that we played tragicaly in eredivisie (until play-offs), but we weren't so bad in Ch.league did we? And then - the play-offs, we played well this for matches (don't forget cup final). That was real ajax, who showed his real strenght that season and i would never say that i expect title this year if we would lost last year play-offs to Feyenord or Groenigen or we played crap in ch.league. For me last year team was good (i talk about the players, not about our performance in Eredivisie 'regular' season), and that, that we couldn't improve our real potention that was Dany's problem i think. i think we lost many of games because we were weak on our psichological and that is a coach problem. i see our squad this year and i know how we can play (that 11 games this year), so i say that we are not worse than PSV and AZ, but somehow we are 8 points behind PSV..

The eredivisie season is something like 34 games, and Ajax was crap for most of those. The team played ok in the Champions' League, and did well in the playoffs, but we're talking about maybe 10 games here. So, on balance, the team had a whole lot more bad performances than good ones.

On any given day, Ajax can beat any other team in the eredivisie, including p$v. But in order to win a league, you can't have too many slip-ups, like the ones against Sparta or Roda. This is where teh mental side of the game comes in: concentration, which comes from coaching, and takes time to develop.

[SE6Ajacied]

but we weren't so bad in Ch.league did we? And then - the play-offs

Arsenal and Inter aside (and we didn't win against either of those teams), the teams we faced in the CL last year weren't exactly world beating. I saw all but one of our games, three live and the rest on TV and apart from the first half against Inter we didn't exactly set the world on fire in any of them.

The play-offs were excellent though definately but I still remember a late-late show in the cup against Roda (I think?) and even towards the end of last season when play picked up it still seemed very touch and go whether we would do well or not...........I'm not going to go on at length but we have definately improved from last season, and by quite a long way.

[666]

Anyone who believes we did well, OK, acceptable or even "bad but not disastrous" during last years CL run should get a copy of FC Thun-Ajax and try to watch it without breaking into tears.

Warning: Make sure you have plenty of antidepressants within reach. You're gonna need all the chemical help you can get. Don't watch this game anywhere near open windows.

Better yet, don't watch it at all. The thought of this embarrassing eyesore of a game makes me want to search eBay for cyanide pills.

[Over Pasanens Head]

I note that it appears that there is starting to be a feeling around the place that HTC should be given a helping hand in leaving the club.
I think that we need is to have a period of stability having got through (with HTC included) 6 coaches in approximately the last 10 years.

I haven't been impressed with HTC this year (but then I thought that we should never have sacked Co) but feel that he should have at least another season at the helm of the good ship Ajax.

[GangstaRiB]

I note that it appears that there is starting to be a feeling around the place that HTC should be given a helping hand in leaving the club.
I think that we need is to have a period of stability having got through (with HTC included) 6 coaches in approximately the last 10 years.

I haven't been impressed with HTC this year (but then I thought that we should never have sacked Co) but feel that he should have at least another season at the helm of the good ship Ajax.

HTC is doing ok in my opinion. Sure, there were some disappointments this seaon, but overall we did ok. I finally saw some proper football, we crushed psv and feyenoord, we're still competing for the championship and KNVB-beker. HTC has, after this season, one year left at Ajax. Another season with HTC will do us good. Maybe HTC will turn out to be like Co Adriaanse at AZ. Adriaanse build the team, Van Gaal cashes in. Same scenario at Ajax possible? I think so!

[Frans]

I note that it appears that there is starting to be a feeling around the place that HTC should be given a helping hand in leaving the club.
I think that we need is to have a period of stability having got through (with HTC included) 6 coaches in approximately the last 10 years.

I haven't been impressed with HTC this year (but then I thought that we should never have sacked Co) but feel that he should have at least another season at the helm of the good ship Ajax.

HTC is doing ok in my opinion. Sure, there were some disappointments this seaon, but overall we did ok. I finally saw some proper football, we crushed psv and feyenoord, we're still competing for the championship and KNVB-beker. HTC has, after this season, one year left at Ajax. Another season with HTC will do us good. Maybe HTC will turn out to be like Co Adriaanse at AZ. Adriaanse build the team, Van Gaal cashes in. Same scenario at Ajax possible? I think so!

Or even Co at Ajax. He builds the team, Koeman cashes in. And then Koeman cashed in again at Benfica. And again at PSV. Which is the next team he's gonna take to a CL 1/4 final before destroying them?
:offtopic:

[Ayman]

GangstaRIB said:

Adriaanse build the team, Van Gaal cashes in. Same scenario at Ajax possible? I think so!

No but Van Gaal did lose key players e.g. Kromkamp, Perez, Landzaat, so you have to give him some credit....he is better then Koeman, how dare you all compare them as coaches :furious3:

[Frans]

GangstaRIB said:

Adriaanse build the team, Van Gaal cashes in. Same scenario at Ajax possible? I think so!

No but Van Gaal did lose key players e.g. Kromkamp, Perez, Landzaat, so you have to give him some credit....he is better then Koeman, how dare you all compare them as coaches :furious3:

well, there is no fucking way i would put Koeman in the league of Van Gaal. I was merely stating another example of a coach cashing in on someones team. My all time favourite example (besides Koeman destroying Adriaanse's Ajax) is John Hart surfing on Laurie Mains' All Black team for 2 years before totally fucking up in 1998 when the senior players retired and then putting in a disasterous performance at the 1999 world cup.

[Philippe]

A good coach can get the most of his players for crucial games, and we badly missed this quality this season.

We'll see what happens with the play-offs and the cup final.

[Over Pasanens Head]

A good coach can get the most of his players for crucial games, and we badly missed this quality this season.

We'll see what happens with the play-offs and the cup final.

I could have sworn that Twente and PSV away were crucial matches

[Kowalczyk]

We'll see what happens with the play-offs and the cup final.

Philippe, you've said this about six million times now, and you can say it another six million times for all I care, but at Ajax a head-coach will not be judged on a cup final and two (or four) play-off games. Losing them won't necessarily cost him his job; winning them won't necessarily save his arse. You may repeat your "if he wishes to stay, he must at least win the cup and the play-offs" mantra as many times as you wish, but that's simply not how it works at this club.

Ajax have a 'masterplan' of ambitions: a list of things they demand from a head-coach at the start of a new season. Let's call it 'targets', or missions he has to accomplish over the course of a season. These missions are not "winning at least 10 kilograms of silverware" or anything like that.

These missions are not secret, so let's take a look at them:

- Ajax must stay in the race for the Dutch championship until the end of the season
- Ajax must play attractive, dominant football
- Ajax must a better team over the course of the season (in other words: they have to make progress)
- the younger players must become better players as individuals (in other words: they must develop, make progress)

Did HTC accomplish these missions? That's not my point. I am not defending (or attacking) HTC over here. My point is that these are the criteria that he will be judged on.

My point is that you seem to have the wrong criteria in mind. The club will analyze HTC's work, for sure, and I'm sure they'll praise him for certain things and criticize him for other things. I have no idea what their conclusion will be. But one thing I do know: winning or losing a cup final makes no difference. It's not like in Greece or Turkey, where football clubs will give a head-coach a statue for two wins, or the sack for two defeats. The head-coach of Ajax will be judged on the work he's done over the course of a whole season, based on the mission statement above.

K.

[LucaS]

And Slop added one thing to that a few months ago. Ajax must play CL!

[Kowalczyk]

And Slop added one thing to that a few months ago. Ajax must play CL!

Jeroen Slop made clear that this is a financial necessity for Ajax, but that's a different story. It was never made an official demand in the technical mission statement. Slop has nothing to do with that: he's a money man. The mission statement is put together by the technical people, who are responsible for the football.

K.

[Over Pasanens Head]

Ko - It appears to me that Philippe is still bearing a grudge against the club and in some ways all of us for the sacking of Danny Blind. I think that his posts are leading to a conclusion whereby if Ten Cate doesn't get a CL spot and win the cup then he will accuse us all of double standards if we still carry on supporting Ten Cate.
I apologise Philippe if I am putting the wrong words in your mouth but it just seemed that maybe these might be your thoughts based on the way your posts have been structured.

[Philippe]

Ajax have a 'masterplan' of ambitions: a list of things they demand from a head-coach at the start of a new season.

On your list you "forgot" international competitions. :hypocrite:

I never thought of HTC as a mastermind. :D

[LucaS]

And Slop added one thing to that a few months ago. Ajax must play CL!

Jeroen Slop made clear that this is a financial necessity for Ajax, but it never became a point of the mission statement. Slop has nothing to do with that: he's a money man. The mission statement is put together by the technical people, who are responsible for the football.

K.

I know that and I understand that. But can Ajax accept that it has the best selection in the Netherlands and still misses out on CL for a few seasons in a row? That's a situation that can occur, even if the 'missions' are accomplished.